Benedicte: 00:08

Welcome to Slow and Steady, the podcast where you get to follow along as we put products in public. Each week, we'll leave you an honest peek into our lives as we share our struggles, our wins, and everything in between. I'm Benedicte, and I am feeling sore.

Benedikt: 00:21

And I'm Benedicte. Today is September 19th. This is episode number 189, and I'm feeling determined

Benedicte: 00:31

by Determined. Sore. I just did 5 writing lessons in 1 weekend, and then I went to ballet class yesterday. But I don't think that was I don't think The ballet classes is the, the culprit of this. It's the, 5 writing lessons.

Benedicte: 00:49

But Luckily for me, I have learned since I fell off in February to, be very mindful of how tired I am on the Sunday and just Not push it. So I did very good on because I have gotten stronger. I've been doing strength. So on Saturday, I got to do field jumping. I did, 3 in a row or 3 obstacles in a row at the most.

Benedicte: 01:13

And then on Sunday, I just did, like, 1 jump, And I realized my balance was not there, and I was like, yes. No more. Yeah. And, I'm very proud of that instead of Pushing because then I could have fallen off again like I did that in February because that was what happened. But it's just so much fun, and you learn so much.

Benedicte: 01:32

But The 5th lesson or maybe by the four and a half lesson, I there's I have nothing left, and Yeah. I still have nothing left.

Benedikt: 01:45

Takes a while to recover, I guess.

Benedicte: 01:47

Takes a while to recover. Absolutely.

Benedikt: 01:49

At least no concussion this time, so that's Good.

Benedicte: 01:52

Yes. No congrats on it. Because I've still I mean, that's hung around longer than I liked. I can still notice that I have Issues being on a screen for too long, which

Benedikt: 02:04

To this day.

Benedicte: 02:05

Yes. Which could be a blessing because then you get off. But, also, So some days, I just I just wanna get a lot of done. I'm, you know, I'm that that kind of person who likes to just Work nothing one day and then, like, a lot the next day, but that is not working because I have, like, a cap on how many hours I feel like it can Or my brain can handle watching watching a screen. So yeah.

Benedicte: 02:33

Do you not fall off horses After 40 people. It's like it's not recommended. Not recommended.

Benedikt: 02:39

Probably even before 40, it's not recommended. But, it doesn't help, I guess.

Benedicte: 02:49

But I'm happy I still can do it, and I'm happy that I've Finally learned to just be like, I don't have to impress anyone. I'll just, like, listen to my buddy and do what I can do. And that's part of this whole journey of slow and steady and just keep on going and not Just like rushing and doing too much and then do nothing. I still have trouble with it, but I'm getting better. But why are you so determined, Benedikt?

Benedikt: 03:18

I am very determined because, yes, stuff is going well, at least on the product side of things. We're currently in the process of migrating to a new email service provider. It's funny. Like, we're an email service provider of sorts, but, Our underlying sending infrastructure is moving from 1 provider to a new one. And I'm Super excited about it because We had some delivery issues with the previous provider, which isn't necessarily the provider's fault, but the way we were using them.

Benedikt: 03:54

Basically, we use the shared IP pool a lot where a lot of other people are sending other stuff as well, and not all of it is good. And now with this new provider, for 1, I feel like they're a little bit more like, I I don't know, like, niche is maybe not the right term. But, like, getting set up with them is a lot more effort than, that other provider we were using before. And we're also getting our own set of dedicated IP addresses, and they manage them for us. And Overall, yeah, like, the platform is really cool.

Benedikt: 04:34

Suits our needs pretty well. And, It's already in an oppressive shape and form, but their roadmap is super exciting in in what they are Providing in the future or planning to build. That's more catering to the stuff we need as, like, an email marketing automation tool, on top of something else. And, that's very exciting. And we started migrating the first couple of accounts over Last week, and I'm determined to do a lot more this week.

Benedikt: 05:11

So, yeah, I'm, I'm also using this opportunity to improve a little bit how we implement the connections to those providers. In theory, we can switch between them Almost transparently. And I'm reworking that a little bit. So the code is a little bit cleaner. I made some decisions 4 or 5 years ago when I first built this that I don't fully understand anymore.

Benedikt: 05:37

Like Yeah. And also, I guess, some of my assumptions were wrong back then. For example, I think one of the assumptions I built into this was that One account is always only set up on one of those providers, which if you think about it, There's no reason why they shouldn't be set up on all of them. And you could, in theory, use 2 providers to send emails for that account at the same time. So, yeah, I don't know.

Benedikt: 06:08

It didn't make a lot of sense the way it was built. And, now I'm cleaning that up a little bit, Re architecting things and stuff like that. And that's, I mean, you know me, there's always stuff I enjoy. Refactoring and cleaning up code. That's my jam, I guess.

Benedikt: 06:27

So, yeah, determined to

Benedicte: 06:29

make the status.

Benedikt: 06:33

Yes, not as much because, like, the functionality stays the same and, like, it's not really It's not really going away, but the interface we have a class in there that's called a provider that has a couple of methods that the rest of the system talks to. And they use the same interface, so The rest of the system doesn't know which provider it's using. And while the code doesn't really decrease, the interface got a lot smaller. So instead of 6 methods, everything was calling it. I think it's down to 2.

Benedikt: 07:12

No. It's down to 3 by now. So, It's not exactly deleting code, but making the interface smaller and simpler. So same goal, I guess.

Benedicte: 07:26

Cool.

Benedikt: 07:27

Yeah. So that's the one thing, one cool thing we did with this new provider is, Previously, we were sending stuff via HTTP, so emails would be basically rendered into JSON and then sent as an HTTP request to the provider we were using. And it always annoyed me that we were like, For every single request, opening a new TCP connection, doing the HTTP stuff, waiting for the reply, closing the connection, and then A millisecond later for the 2nd message, opening a connection, sending an http stuff, waiting for the response, closing the connection.

Benedicte: 08:06

Because you're usually sending a lot of messages at one time.

Benedikt: 08:09

Yes. Like,

Benedicte: 08:09

when a campaign goes out, it goes out often to everyone.

Benedikt: 08:13

Exactly. Sometimes we send several thousands of messages in a relatively short amount of time. And that overhead, I mean, it has never really caused problems in that sense, like that it was too slow or stuff like that or that we got blocked, But it always felt inefficient to me. So with this new provider, for 1, we we are using the SMTP endpoint. So it's not HTTP anymore.

Benedikt: 08:40

So But, like, native, email messaging protocol. And, we also implemented a connection pooling system on top of that. So instead of, like, opening and closing the connections, we we opened the connection Once, or actually open a couple of connections in parallel, and then they get reused every time we send a new message. And, That feels really nice. Just knowing this is that it's a lot more efficient than not doing all of this unnecessary Handshake stuff anymore.

Benedikt: 09:18

So, yeah, that was fun to build.

Benedicte: 09:21

And it feels like one of those things that could become an issue When you're getting even larger lists

Benedikt: 09:27

True true.

Benedicte: 09:28

Clients. So it's it's something that you didn't need in the beginning, but that

Benedikt: 09:34

We still don't need, if you're honest. But, No.

Benedicte: 09:37

But if but you're closer to being somewhere where this could become an issue. And when you're working on that code, you could fix it.

Benedikt: 09:44

Yes. Yes. Exactly. It was a good opportunity to we we was we're building this new code anyways, and it wasn't that much effort to Take that extra step and make it use a connection pool. So, yeah, that was a fun, fun experience.

Benedikt: 10:03

Yeah. And then on the front end side of things, the other reason why I'm determined is our visual workflow builder is making good progress. We are and out a couple of kings in the rendering. I just sent a tweet earlier of one of the issues we were facing where, For example, conditions suddenly had 3 branches. At least it looked like they had 3 branches.

Benedikt: 10:25

So true, false, and something in the middle.

Benedicte: 10:31

That was the alignment line, wasn't it?

Benedikt: 10:34

Yes. It was definitely the alignment line. And in the end, What it boiled down to was a rendering ordering thing. So it wasn't a the line didn't belong to the condition, but to 2 other nodes totally unrelated. And, but it got rendered in the wrong order.

Benedikt: 10:52

So a note at the bottom got connected to a note at the top and stuff like that. So it was a line going through the entire thing, Basically. Anyways, too

Benedicte: 11:02

much touch.

Benedikt: 11:05

It It took a while to figure this one out. I I hope we have a solution now, but we've been at the place where we thought we had a solution for a couple of times now. But, yeah, we'll see. So far I'm confident, but I've been confident a couple of times before. So We'll see.

Benedikt: 11:27

Anyways, why I'm determined to start the goal for this week is To finish up the workflows so that we can create simple workflows in the UI, Set everything up, like conditions, delays, messages, and then publish the workflow and actually run it. So basically, the full stack mini version of what we're going to build, we wanted to have done by the end of the week. And that's looking good. And, I'm really excited about it because now that we're at this stage, or hopefully soon at this stage, we can, for 1, start improving things, like tweaking and improving the styling, but also adding a lot of more new, new features, like, in terms of, new functionality that you can do because right now, as I said, delays sending messages and splits like true false condition checks. But we have a long list of of other things we wanna do, and, it's finally time that we put that we can implement them, given We get the stuff done.

Benedikt: 12:32

But as I said, I'm determined and confident that we

Benedicte: 12:36

You seem like you're at least you're, like, positive, Because I feel like I've been working on, because I mentioned last time, the framer outside integration. And I don't know if it was last time or if it was a little bit after that where I was like, this is never gonna work. Like, I I'm just, you know, I'm just this is never gonna I'm never gonna make it happen. And you just feel, like, stupid, and you're, like, just frustrated and that kinda like what's it called? Despair?

Benedicte: 13:04

Valley of the spare or whatever. Yeah.

Benedikt: 13:06

Yeah. Yeah.

Benedicte: 13:06

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then we were having that set at all hands yesterday, and, like, one of the guys were, like, Say, like, he was working on something and he'd been going into it and just feeling like, oh, wow. This is gonna be so good.

Benedicte: 13:17

This refractor is just gonna solve, Like, these things, and then he was like, I'm now in the pits of despair, whatever he said. That, like, this is a part of the process. Yes. You know, it you're gonna be there and then not for everything, but for a lot of things. Then you're gonna slowly, like, dig your way out, and then suddenly it goes, like, fast again or, like, it's it it clears up again.

Benedicte: 13:50

But it's just Funny, like, how we all and it feels so real when you're there. You're like, this it's absolutely never gonna happen. Yeah. I should just give up. I should never develop anything again.

Benedicte: 14:01

And then and then suddenly you're like, oh.

Benedikt: 14:05

So true. I feel like, We we had a 1 on 1 meeting with the layout or the front end developers doing most of the work on the AI side of things on this. And we were talking a little bit about this. We didn't explicitly talk about the pit of despair, but, we noticed that for this, For this one, we did an initial experiment, like instead of building like a workflow builder type of thing inside our application. We basically well, it was still sort of in our application, but it wasn't fully integrated.

Benedikt: 14:41

It was more like A prototype slash experiment to figure out a couple of things how we would approach them. And then only afterwards try to implement the same thing or the same ideas, but within the constraint of our existing application. And in the conversation yesterday, it became very apparent that we would have probably been in more of a Valley of despair or We have more problems if we try to do both things at the same time, like figure out Like how this is going to work on an isolated level, plus all the problems that come from integrating with an existing application That would have probably thrown us off way too much and, like, cost way more issues. But by being very deliberate about, like, learning how to do this in theory and then doing this inside the rear thing that I think helped a lot to to smooth out the process. And Because, like, he at the beginning, before we did the experiment, he was like, I've got no idea how we ever going to build this.

Benedikt: 15:54

And then after they experimented with, like, okay, I think we have an idea. And then, sure, we're still running into Small problems here and there. But now it's more a it's more manageable because we know that the Basics and, like, the foundations are there and they're working and they're not going away. And everything else is just a little bit of, like, Small problems here and there that we have to fix, but, the overall architecture is good enough to just just run with it.

Benedicte: 16:27

Because I gotta say, looking at what you're building, I'm like, I have no idea how I would start.

Benedikt: 16:33

It's not that comp like, once you figure it out, it's not that complicated.

Benedicte: 16:39

Probably. But it just it's one of those things where it's like, okay. I've never tackled anything similar where it's that interactive. Like, I haven't worked. I mean, people make Amazing games.

Benedicte: 16:52

Like, you know, you could do amazing things with code. But, I haven't done anything that interactive. So it would have been, yeah, a lot of experimentation, learning how to or figuring out how to do it in a way that makes sense.

Benedikt: 17:07

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I'd love to just do do a deep dive into the details how we do it, but I think that's probably out of scope for this one.

Benedicte: 17:15

For this one, maybe do a talk. I loved your talk on what was it? Aggregating analytics?

Benedikt: 17:22

Yeah. Accounting and, reporting and stuff like that. Yeah.

Benedicte: 17:26

Yes. So you should do a talk on this one. Or maybe Leo can do a talk on this one.

Benedikt: 17:31

That's an interesting idea. Yeah. Yeah. He wants to go to Ambercon next year. Maybe we should, instead of like buying him a ticket, maybe you should Submitted a proposal.

Benedicte: 17:42

Yeah. That's how you do it in a bootstrapped company. Well, I guess you have some funding. But, Yes.

Benedikt: 17:49

But, yeah. We don't have a lot of money to spare. That's still true.

Benedicte: 17:53

No. And I and I also think, like, what we talked about at conferences before, like, if he wants to go to Amber. Js to get to know and become a part of the community more, Then being a speaker just gives you it's like a cheat code.

Benedikt: 18:09

Right. Yeah. I'll talk to him about that. Maybe Or maybe he listens to this episode. I don't actually know.

Benedikt: 18:16

But,

Benedicte: 18:16

be a speaker. I promise it's so much more fun than being an attendee. Also more stressful, but the

Benedikt: 18:26

But also more fun.

Benedicte: 18:27

Yes. Yeah. And you just yeah. You just get that network and you It's just totally different than just being, an attendee.

Benedikt: 18:37

Yes. Agreed. It's fun. Yeah. Yeah.

Benedikt: 18:41

Cool. Talking about fun, my last update. And then we talk about your stuff. I've been occupying, like, most of this episode already.

Benedicte: 18:48

It's fine. I'm I'm just I am cold and sore, and I don't wanna do anything.

Benedikt: 18:57

Okay. Fair enough. Like, well, I talk about fun. Michael Copper of Nusi recently challenged me to set up my drum kit again. I used to play the drums when I was a kid.

Benedikt: 19:16

And then, well, literally, we talked about this earlier. 30 years ago or even more than 30 years ago, I had some drum lessons when I was 6 or 7. And Had drum lessons for a couple of years, then kinda lost interest until a couple of years later, I set up a drum kit again. Lost interest. And, basically, since we started building user lists, I feel like I didn't really set up a drum kit as well.

Benedikt: 19:48

And recently he started drumming, so he challenged me to set it up. And, we're doing a 30 day Course on Drumeo, which is like online drum lesson stuff. And we're doing this 30 day course. It started last Monday. And it's so much fun.

Benedikt: 20:05

Like, for 1, getting back to drumming is fun. And also that course we're doing, It's just the right amount of challenging, but not too challenging to be overwhelmed by it. So every day, like, We start you start looking at the lesson of the day, and you're like, what's going on? How am I supposed to ever be able to play this? And then sure, the course is built in a way where you should, in theory, be able to do it after 10 minutes.

Benedikt: 20:38

If you're good, for me, it's like more an hour or so. But at the end of that hour, I can do it. And it feels really good.

Benedicte: 20:46

Cool.

Benedikt: 20:47

That's a lot of fun. And it's also funny how our brains work, because some days I can barely do it by the end of the session. And then the next day you come back at it and you just do it Like, it just works. You you kinda memorize it overnight. It's so fun.

Benedicte: 21:08

I think yeah. I don't know. It's the same when we went back because we weren't where we were at this horse camp that I was on this weekend with with, Lillian, the pirate princess, my daughter, in In April. So I was there in February, fell off, and then we were both there in April. Mhmm.

Benedicte: 21:24

And she'd been going to a writing school here in Oslo that I wasn't that excited about, and we we quit. So when we went in April, she was a little, like, anxious and nervous, and she wanted somebody to, Not Carrie. Hold. Hold the like, but hold the horse while you're walking around the arena, that, like, an adult would do that. And we learned very quickly that, not the parent should do that.

Benedicte: 21:51

Like, another

Benedikt: 21:52

parent should

Benedicte: 21:53

we would, like, swap kids, Makes it, much easier. And she did that, and I felt like she had a lot of fun. She loved being there. But then when we came back now, And she hasn't had any, like, riding since. Like Mhmm.

Benedicte: 22:06

We visited a horse, like, once. And she just marched in there, and she was like, I know how to do this and just got on the horse, started trotting. And then they even galloped in with somebody holding, but she was just like, you know, this is This is fine. Like, I'm not scared. I'm not nervous.

Benedicte: 22:24

And she didn't leave kinda like that. So something like you said, something has just happened, like time, maturity, or just Brain. Brain's being weird.

Benedikt: 22:34

Yeah. It's it's so amazing to watch. And even, we do this At least twice so

Benedicte: 22:41

we could jump

Benedikt: 22:41

skilled maybe as well. Yeah. But,

Benedicte: 22:44

we jump skill had also improved even though skill had done anything.

Benedikt: 22:49

Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. That's what I'm trying to get at is, we're doing we're doing calls twice a week where, like, basically do the lesson together and then talk about it a little bit. And just like trying to lesson and then doing, like, talking about stuff for 20 minutes and then going back.

Benedikt: 23:06

Like, even those 20 minutes. For some reason, I'm a lot better after doing nothing for 20 minutes. I don't know. Like, your brain just in the background, I don't know. Memorizes the motions or whatever.

Benedikt: 23:21

And suddenly when you get back into it, it feels like natural, where previously we're struggling. That's just fun to watch. It's, it's amazing. Yeah.

Benedicte: 23:31

The power of rest. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Which is also why we shouldn't force ourself to code through just keep on coding.

Benedicte: 23:41

Like, sometimes that's the right thing to do, and sometimes it just needs to go for a walk.

Benedikt: 23:44

Yeah. Yes. Yes. I mean, with the drumming stuff right now, definitely notice if I struggle, try to get it right at least a little bit And then take a break, come back later. And, suddenly it works.

Benedicte: 24:02

Oh, that's really cool. I like I'm happy you're getting back into fun stuff.

Benedikt: 24:08

Feels like it's It feels like getting back into a hobby again. I didn't really have anything, Until just recently. Yeah.

Benedicte: 24:19

I feel like this is a general theme amongst the people I know online. Maybe also in my personal life. I'm not sure, but mostly the people online, they're, like, in their early forties. It's like suddenly you're, like, picking back up. Like, don't know how old.

Benedicte: 24:34

I never remember how old you are, but, you started, like, looking I mean, yeah. Looking looking back and, Yeah. What you enjoy doing when you were younger and, like, picking up some some hobbies like I've done with with, horseback riding And, I guess now ballet, which I never did. That is just like a new thing, completely new thing. And on Thursday, I'm bringing my little sister to an extra lesson.

Benedicte: 25:02

She's coming to visit, and she danced for, like, 10 years, like, Hardcore, like, danced a lot. So I'm gonna be I'm gonna be, like, jumping around like a, I don't know, like a buffalo, And she's gonna be gracious and, and all of that, but we can do it together anyway. Because with ballet, especially, you do, like, these same exercises, that even, like, professionals do to warm up and, like, keep their skill, I guess. So I think she'll enjoy it even though it's not like, even though she's not a beginner, she can just do it better than the rest of us. So Yeah.

Benedicte: 25:41

Nice. Anyhow, but she can then You can

Benedikt: 25:44

you can show off your, like, your cool sister. Right?

Benedicte: 25:47

Yes. I can. And we're like, oh, good. My sister, she knows how to do this. I don't think she's done it in 15 years either because, I mean, she's reached her thirties and haven't done her, You know, childhood hobbies in the wild either.

Benedikt: 26:02

But I

Benedicte: 26:02

think there's some, like, skill that's That's gonna still shine through.

Benedikt: 26:08

I don't think you're under under stuff. Yes.

Benedicte: 26:12

But other than that so, work wise or, like, Internet wise, I always go to these horse camps for a weekend and wonder what I do online. But, yeah. So I wrote in my notes that Saul is here, and I've noticed I thought back that Seems like I do a lot of, like, the MVPs or, like, IDs that come to me are in the fall. So I'm wondering if that is, like, that relaxing summer or, like, kinda rest mode. And then when I get back into, like, routine, like, I get these ideas.

Benedicte: 26:45

Because I talked about MixedPod last week Or last time we'd spoke, this idea I have of creating an app that lets you mix podcast episodes into kinda new podcast feeds, like mixtapes. And that just came to me, like, 3 weeks ago or something, and now I'm like, I I, like, I have to code. Like, it has I have to code it. If nobody like, I just need to, like, at least verify if it's possible. But so we're trying to get some sponsors and do this as a sponsored build.

Benedicte: 27:10

But then I thought back that both POW and followers are also, like, fall MVPs. And now I really wanna go back and look at all the other crazy stuff I've done if it's all fall stuff. Like because then I need to plan for an unknown cool project that will come to me in the fall every year. Like, we'll just sell, like, sponsored project. You we don't know what it is.

Benedicte: 27:35

The idea is gonna like, it will just surface in end of August, then will have, like, some idea of what she wants to make. But that's kinda interesting to just see. I don't know what I'm gonna do with that, But it was a observation of of my how my brain works, I guess.

Benedikt: 27:53

Isn't there isn't there this concept of, That, rest, helps with creativity in general. Like

Benedicte: 28:01

Oh, absolutely.

Benedikt: 28:02

You can only be creative if you're well rested and Probably even have, like, some are a little bit bored, I guess. I guess that helps with, like, creativity. Maybe it's a little bit of that.

Benedicte: 28:16

I think absolutely that because it's so nice being at the cabin for an extended period of time, and I work a lot less. But it's also very much Kind of the same. So it's beautiful location, beautiful sunsets, but it's also not, like, stressful in the terms of a lot of new input because it's somewhere I've been for a long time, so I just, like, really I feel like my pulse is just, like, settling, when I'm there. And then you kinda go out of that and you start up your routine of getting back to school. And, like, we've done that for a couple of weeks, and then we're into that.

Benedicte: 28:50

Like, that is Moving along, like, smoothly, and then boom. I get I'm like, yes. I wanna make. Now I know what I wanna make. So there's definitely something, something there.

Benedicte: 29:01

And I'll have to go back and look at this other one, all the other weird projects I've started to see when When they when they've shown up, I do think I have some notes or some initial commits that I could look at. It could be fun. And then more specifically yes. That was Queen Ray. We're working on this mixed pod ID.

Benedicte: 29:24

So, The idea now is that to do is to do it in all the frameworks

Benedikt: 29:32

What? At

Benedicte: 29:32

the same time. So depending on if we get sponsors or not. Like, if we get enough sponsors, then the idea would be to solely and steadily build it Like, a tiny feature at the time and then build it in parallel in several frameworks to kind of showcase the similarities. Or, like, I wanna showcase the web. Like, it's all in the end.

Benedicte: 29:52

We're in a browser. We're on the web, and a lot of these, like, Twitter feuds Are just, like, syntactic sugar annoying worse.

Benedikt: 30:05

Also I'm going to do it in TypeScript, though.

Benedicte: 30:09

Totally gets me started. But but and I think So and I also need to to learn more of these frameworks at at least surface level for outside of support because we're getting a lot more next Support requests, and I don't really wanna learn next. But if I can learn it in this this context, then it's, like, part of something a little bit bigger. So then we could do, next Gatsby, which I do know Astro and then maybe Eleventy or one of these, like, much But all JavaScript, though, I'm not learning a new language right now. So we're doing those maybe if we can get enough sponsors to have the time.

Benedicte: 30:49

But I think it could be really cool I've been talking to some people. I've been replying to the queen emails, and And I think 2 or 3 at least were like, well, at this point, I wanna learn about the similarities and differences between The framework. Because a lot of people have learned 1 as a way to learn how to code web applications, but then they're also seeing like, okay. There are some Some, like, fundamental, pieces of the web that they all build on and Knowing which ones are the framework and which ones are the web. Yes.

Benedicte: 31:24

So I was also thinking about doing 1 in vanilla JS, such as like

Benedikt: 31:29

Nice.

Benedicte: 31:29

Old school. Maybe I should do jQuery.

Benedikt: 31:33

Maybe. Yeah. Just like

Benedicte: 31:35

Still still one of the most used,

Benedikt: 31:39

True. And there's been a new release just recently. Yeah. Destiny, what

Benedicte: 31:44

is your question?

Benedikt: 31:47

Wouldn't that idea require some sort of service side component, though?

Benedicte: 31:52

Yes. So all of there will be some service side as well, but that will also be in JavaScript. So if you're using Next or Astro or Gatsby, they have their own kind of serverless function

Benedikt: 32:01

Right.

Benedicte: 32:02

Situation. Yeah. But then for, I guess, vanilla JS and also Eleventy, I would imagine, Would need to use some kind of serverless back end or just spin up our own node server. Yep. Right.

Benedicte: 32:15

But the cool thing here is that for the sponsors, they would then kind of I would be able to showcase how to use the tech like, a certain CMS with all of the technologies, like, side by side, And that could be interesting or, like, the database show it side by side. Yeah. So we're looking to get a CMS sponsor, a database sponsor, Error logging and image some kind of image thing. And then I would love to have Cloudinary, which we worked with before because they have this, like, AI audio feature where you can give them an AI audio file, and it will, like, give you interesting snippets. So then we could make, like, a preview of the whole feed with, like, 30 seconds from each episode or something.

Benedicte: 32:58

Don't talk to me about copyright right now. But

Benedikt: 33:02

No. No. No. I

Benedicte: 33:03

won't. I won't. I think so. Yeah. So, kind of a a some kind of, Tool like that could also be interesting.

Benedicte: 33:12

I mean, we could use OpenAI under the hood as well, but, but yeah. So we're, out there Talking to people and, like, trying to write up some sort of sales pitch slash proposal, and we'll see how it goes, because it's gonna be time consuming, so we'll need a lot of sponsors. We're like, we need sponsors that are willing to pay. That's not

Benedikt: 33:34

Very time consuming, to be honest.

Benedicte: 33:37

Yes. So, but also with Mixpod, like, I feel like Doing all my sides project, I feel like it can like, the scope can be managed. Like, if we don't get an image or, like, if Cloudinary doesn't wanna join us join us, then we don't have to use do that audio snippet preview thing. You know? And if we don't get an error logging sponsor, like, we'll just skip error logging for this time or, like, just do it, like, you know, not on stream or, like, don't spend so much time on it.

Benedicte: 34:08

So, I think it's like and then if we get a few, we'll just do maybe 2 frameworks instead of 5. You know? It's Mhmm. We can we can size this in many different ways. So we'll see.

Benedicte: 34:19

And if not, maybe we'll do it in the spring. Even though the idea is now, I'll probably make an MVP this fall anyway. Just won't tell anyone and then redo it in the spring. Sounds like good.

Benedikt: 34:30

Yeah. Yeah.

Benedicte: 34:31

I had it's got it. I don't know. It's just like I I'm so frustrated. I wanna code it. I just

Benedikt: 34:36

Yeah. Yes.

Benedicte: 34:37

Time. I just Oh,

Benedikt: 34:41

Yes.

Benedicte: 34:41

Yes. I need to get paid. But yes. So I am, working on that. And then for outset, we're working on that framer component.

Benedicte: 34:55

Hopefully, get that done soon because then I'll have to go in to more documentation mode and, ex and doing better documentation around using Oceta for the more code heavy Users, the ones that, you know, have a back in themselves or authentication system themselves and, like, showcasing how those integration can Work, some of them are fairly simple. Like, some in some paths are fairly easy. They just need to be documented. I managed to get to trade a or resign. I managed to get an token and Decode it and verify it and then resign it with a super bass token.

Benedicte: 35:37

No. Super bass key so that you can actually then use row level Security and all those nice things in super bass. And it's it's not like, when you first figure out the steps, it's it's not a lot of code, and it's it's fairly straightforward, but it's Something that needs to be documented and not something we can expect everyone to just

Benedikt: 35:57

Mhmm. Yes.

Benedicte: 35:58

Figure out on their own. And then also for outset, we're working on these, like, fake businesses. So for this case, for instance, it would be fun to make our Family factors, which is a family to do app. We could do that in outside on super bass, and maybe then Next or something if I have to learn next. Reluctantly Learning, next.

Benedicte: 36:26

So yeah. I guess that's it. Yeah. And we were talking a little bit before, before we we turn on recording because we sitting here in this recording system with all the new features and how they're kinda just jammed into into the product, and we love all the new features. But it seems like they've been, like, pushing features and doing more.

Benedicte: 36:45

Like, first, you can only livestream, but now you can do recordings, and you can do webinars. And this is Streamyard we're using, highly recommend. And I was saying, yeah, similarly to, we've just been or they've been adding features and adding features and adding features. And now we're seeing that, you know, some things maybe, are not where they should be, and then you were like, yes. Same thing with Good to you, Celeste.

Benedikt: 37:12

Yeah.

Benedicte: 37:14

And we're pulling 1 part out now, which is kinda like a brand center because we have, you can do email email forms, like sign up forms and lead capture forms and Sign in, login, and profile embeds that we have, and you design them in different places.

Benedikt: 37:33

Mhmm.

Benedicte: 37:33

So we're Pulling that into, like, a brand center where you can set up brand and styling for all of all of your kind of, Styled stuff. But then we're like, then we're removing it from this place everybody That is already using us is expecting. So we'll need to have some sort of, like, link, you know, to the to the brand center. And when you're what you were saying that maybe depending on the situation, sometimes it's not worth all the development hours to, like, move features around and, like, doing that cleanup. And I've noticed as I'm getting older that sometimes if I've learned where something is, like, you can maybe, You can, like, fix that and make it better, and I am annoyed.

Benedicte: 38:17

Like, my gray hair Do not like you improving your interface if I have finally learned the interface. So it's not only, Yeah. It's not only kind of the time spent for user list or outside. It's also the users who are used to maybe something bad Or, like, not as good.

Benedikt: 38:40

Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes when you you sit and know how know where it is, and suddenly it's in a different place, which makes lot more sense, but, yeah, you have to relearn that, which is annoying, I guess. Yeah.

Benedicte: 38:54

And I feel especially for what like Someone who would consider themselves more of a power user. Like, they've spent time kind of learning all the, Like

Benedikt: 39:03

They pride themselves knowing this weird setting, 3 levels of

Benedicte: 39:07

love for Christmas. Yeah. And they were like, you know, And then suddenly, you make it easier and, like, all that time they've spent really digging in.

Benedikt: 39:17

Thing.

Benedicte: 39:18

Is there nothing? But, yeah, those are and I feel like these are issues that you'll only kind of you have to been around for a while to get to have these kind of problems.

Benedikt: 39:33

Yeah. Yeah. True. And and

Benedicte: 39:36

it's easy starting out being like, well, You know, my new tool is gonna be perfect.

Benedikt: 39:44

For sure. For sure. I had a similar thought sometime this week where, Previously, before running useless, I was looking at other tools, and sometimes you notice, like, I don't know. Like, this is Kind of awkward. It would be so much better if they did it like this or that or whatever.

Benedikt: 40:03

And now with situations flipped. I sometimes see parts of the application where I'm like, nah. We should probably improve this. But then I look at my to do list of other stuff, like that we need to tackle. And usually there's a lot of more stuff that's way more important.

Benedikt: 40:20

And, yes, it's not perfect, and it's not super nice and super clean and whatever, But it somewhat works. And there's a million other things we should rather be focusing on. So I have a new appreciation for Small kinks and weirdnesses like that because, yeah, sometimes it's just good enough and, you have to tackle the more important stuff.

Benedicte: 40:45

Do you feel like you have more empathy when you're using other people's tools as well?

Benedikt: 40:53

Yes And no, like for smaller noises like that. Yes, probably I have more empathy. But like stuff that's. Just inconsistent across the border. That feels like a bigger problem.

Benedikt: 41:13

I get more annoyed. I feel like because I'm like, we spend so much time on this to get this right. Why can't you just take a little bit of hair And, and just fix this. Right? So and especially if it's been stuff that we've been dealt we have dealt with in the past because It was as bad or

Benedicte: 41:34

we could Yeah. Well, you took the time. Like, this tool is not taking the time to do it.

Benedikt: 41:38

Yeah. Like, why didn't you take the time, to to to build this properly.

Benedicte: 41:46

Okay. Yeah. I don't know I don't know where where I'm where I'm at. I usually get very annoyed. It should I'm like, it should be where I expect it to be.

Benedikt: 41:57

Yes. Of of course.

Benedicte: 42:02

But I tried to, like but I've always been friendly in, like, support requests. Like, there, I've always feel like I've had empathy. If it hasn't been if it's not, like, a large corporation who's, like, you know, losing my data Or it's something that they shouldn't do. But, but, yeah, that's interesting. It's interesting to see.

Benedicte: 42:22

It'll be fun to see. I mean, it's only under the saint the the brand center or the brand settings or whatever we we're gonna call it still in the design phase, but it looks very nice in James's sketches. Like, I would love to see that roll out. And it's also in regards to getting a lot of support requests on that. And, like so it's not just like, oh, that would be nice.

Benedicte: 42:45

Like or that's how it should be. It's like, well, this might you know, we we can then Hopefully, we'll get less of those requests.

Benedikt: 42:53

For sure. Yeah. Sometimes That

Benedicte: 42:55

will free up time.

Benedikt: 42:57

Yeah. Like, if it if there's something that comes up in customer support a lot, then it's definitely worth spending the time on it and and improving it. Because Ultimately, that's also time you have to spend by just helping and answering the same question over and over and over and over again. Sometimes it's easier to Just fix

Benedicte: 43:15

it. Right? But if, like, nobody has complained that something is, in the wrong like, a button is in the wrong location, then

Benedikt: 43:27

It's probably not a problem. Yeah.

Benedicte: 43:28

It's not a big problem. Like, they learn, and they're fine. So yeah. I guess that's it. I'm gonna go and get the fire going on my fireplace, which I now have to remember to do every morning because I didn't today.

Benedicte: 43:42

And by 3 o'clock. I was in Icicle, and then we were gonna record. So I'm still in Icicle, And I'm gonna go melt.

Benedikt: 43:53

Nice. Yeah. For those, listening, You missed out on, Benedicte wrapped in a blanket for the entire recording.

Benedicte: 44:03

It's not just a blanket. It's my duvet.

Benedikt: 44:08

It looks very, very flowery and colorful.

Benedicte: 44:11

So Yes. That's nice. Always. Always. See you around

Benedikt: 44:16

in the web. Yes. See you around. And, oh, one more thing. I won't be around for the next recording because I will be at MicroConf.

Benedicte: 44:28

I think you should do MicroConf, podcast.

Benedikt: 44:37

Not sure. I appreciate the plot, but, I tried that in the past, and it's always a little bit Awkward. And you have to squeeze it in because you're so occupied with other stuff. But, yeah, Maybe I was

Benedicte: 44:57

trying to find a sub

Benedikt: 44:58

or you find a sub. Yes.

Benedicte: 45:02

We'll see.

Benedikt: 45:03

Okay. Maybe well, maybe you bring on Jane because unfortunately she's not coming to MicroCon, so she's got some free time.

Benedicte: 45:13

Oh, no. Well, enjoy. I'm a little jealous.

Benedikt: 45:18

Thank you. Yes.

Benedicte: 45:19

I'm looking forward to it.

Benedikt: 45:21

You will be there next year? Promise.

Benedicte: 45:24

Hopefully. We'll see.

Benedikt: 45:28

We see. Okay. Fair enough. If any of you listeners are at a conference, please come over and say hi.

Benedicte: 45:38

I have He's not as scary as he looks.

Benedikt: 45:40

Yes. I'm not as scary as I look. And I've got new Better than Imperfect stickers. I should have the slow and steady stickers somewhere, but I'm not entirely sure where I put them. So if I Yeah.

Benedikt: 45:53

If I'm able to still find them, I'll bring them. Otherwise, they would just be better than imperfect stickers.

Benedicte: 45:58

Oh, no. Because there was a glitter Sale. Glitter sticker sale from from Sticker Mule that that was the sale? There was a sale until last night or, like, 2 days ago, you could have gotten slow and steady glitter stickers.

Benedikt: 46:15

I got these, the better than imperfect Glittery.

Benedicte: 46:20

Oh, but you didn't get them on the sale?

Benedikt: 46:22

No. I ordered them 2 weeks ago. There wasn't a sale back then.

Benedicte: 46:26

Not too bad. I just got Too bad. We're never gonna end this episode if we keep

Benedikt: 46:31

something like this. Probably not. So Anyways

Benedicte: 46:34

You know, you can edit out large parts of ending? I think that we can do it just Why don't you just keep it?